Being blunt

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Being blunt

Post by Lily-Anne on Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:37 pm

How much honesty should we offer pupils as instructors, where progress is concerned? How much does a pupil want? I was reading about pupils not wanting to hear they are not test ready, and know of instructors that go along with this and take someone to test well aware they will not pass, to keep the work. Is this really common place?

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Re: Being blunt

Post by Dale Brooks CEO on Sun Sep 12, 2010 5:25 pm

Not for me it isn't.

I may have lost work because of this but they go for test when I and more importantly them, believe they can pass and pass well.

They are told this on the 1st few lessons.

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Re: Being blunt

Post by The Boss on Sun Sep 12, 2010 8:35 pm

However Dale there is a case for an instructors praise to be taken as gospel,

e.g. We are encouraged to use the "praise sandwich" as in praise - criticise - praise, as well known teaching and learning tool.
Yet I have witnessed on many an instructor training or re-training session, where the praise part is laid on with a trowel so thick that the pupil though they were the best driver the instructor had ever taught. This scenario is very difficult to go back on, as it challenges the first assessment and valuation of the pupil.
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Re: Being blunt

Post by Dale Brooks CEO on Mon Sep 13, 2010 8:08 am

I agree. I think the praise can be over cooked tbh. Whilst I was training I sat in loads of other ADI lessons and saw what you describe above.

I say to them at the start if they do things well I will praise them and encourage them but if things can be improved I will let them know also.

It all depends how you speak to them.

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Re: Being blunt

Post by 'orrible Oracle on Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:11 am

Praise.

I prefer to not over egg anyones performance.

I will use words or phrases such as "that was better" " thats closer to what we need to be doing" "Thats how I would do it" " thats ther acceptable method/standard" as well as non quantifiable comments such as " lovely jubbly" "he shoots, he scores"

What I wont use is words or phases akin to "great" "perfect" "ideal" "excellent" as praise.

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Re: Being blunt

Post by StephenL on Mon Sep 13, 2010 3:51 pm

I'm very similar, blunt as a brick.

If they aren't ready I tell them so, if they don't like it - tough. I've never lost work over it. In fact I've gained work because I have a honest, no BS approach.

I will not, as 'orrible put it, over egg their ability. If it's ok but not right, then that's what it is. And that's what their told.

I am however (and I've been told often) not very generous with priase, basically if they do well they know it and they get praise. If it's pants - it's pants. And that's what their told.

I once got told about a local ADI, while I was training, who always buttered up his pupils with loads and loads of praise, how good they were, being impressed by their driving. One of his pupils took this literally, went for a joy ride in his dads car, as his instructor had said he was close to test standard. Sadly this wasn't the case, the car was an auto so he shoved into something that went forward and drove into a wall. His instructor had secretly been doing the clutch and brake during his lessons.

I'll only do the clutch in dire circumstance, holding up lots of traffic, just to get us out of the way, then it's back to them and working on it. The only way to learn is to do it.
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Re: Being blunt

Post by The Boss on Mon Sep 13, 2010 5:01 pm

We do of course need a softer approach on occasions when dealing with FLHs.

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Re: Being blunt

Post by Lily-Anne on Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:19 pm

Why do instructors do that - take over clutch work and not say... I see it so often.

FLH's need jam on it lol

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Re: Being blunt

Post by StephenL on Tue Sep 14, 2010 8:49 am

The Boss wrote:We do of course need a softer approach on occasions when dealing with FLHs.

The Boss

Really? Mmmm, that's where I've been going wrong!
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Re: Being blunt

Post by The Boss on Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:49 am

StephenL wrote:
The Boss wrote:We do of course need a softer approach on occasions when dealing with FLHs.

The Boss

Really? Mmmm, that's where I've been going wrong!

Yeah because it is seen as a challenge against THEIR skills, skills they already believe they are very good at.

Try this ask a few friends who hold a full licence, to rate themselves on a scale of 1-10 on these subjects in this order.

a) Swimming, 1 = going to drown 10 = thinking about putting in for the Olympics.

b) D.I.Y. 1 = What's a screwdriver, 10 = I have built my own house extension,

c) Cooking 1 = I can burn water, 10 = do dinner parties every other weekend.

d Driving 1 = Take the keys off them 10 = Rospa gold or above.

Then ask how many were below 5 in each category. Result will be many below 5 in all subjects bar 1 "Driving" so all highly skilled it would seem.

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Re: Being blunt

Post by StephenL on Wed Sep 15, 2010 10:32 pm

The track instructor I had last year has a website where he offers drivers the chance to have their driving assessed by him, he's a rally driver and teaches advanced car control. Simon Clark.

On the site is a statement that to embodies fleet training:

"There's two things you can't teach a man, sex & driving."

Believe it or not I learned more about my ability as a driver, the capabilities of a car and how much more any driver can learn by doing 6 laps of a track in an Aston Martin Vantage with Simon. Once you push yourself and a car to the limit (but not beyond) in a suitable environment, you learn that there is nothing you can't do if you apply yourself but there is so much more you can learn about skilled driving.

Last weekend I was back at the track, this time rally driving. Handbrake turns & drifting I could already do but I've never done a Scandinavian Flick or turn in - ease off before. I have now. To me these skills make me a better driver, not a perfect one. I still want to try the skid pan, get back on the track and do off roading. Eventually do the DIAmond Special test & Cardington.

Now what's all this to do with being blunt or dealing with FLH, the last time I had to do a Fleet assessment the driver (male) said, "Don't try telling me how to drive I'm probably better than you." Did I take a soft approach? Nope. I told him about all the driving experience I've had, all the qualifications I hold and politely pointed out he'd been driving for the last 10 minutes with the handbrake on. He shut up then.

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Re: Being blunt

Post by The Boss on Thu Sep 16, 2010 6:57 am

Stephen,

I get the bit about Qualifications, and your right if I have the opportunity to list mine it does shut them up (bored to sleep prob Laughing ) but then I get less feed back, that makes it more difficult to assess if they are about to change their habits of a lifetime or just say yes at the right times to shut me up, followed by a demonstration that they can do what I'm asking, knowing the moment they are on their own they plan to revert back to their own "better" style of driving.

On the track its about skills acquisition with reason, the goal is in your face track, winning, speed, all = fun, excitement and adrenalin you have a willing, knowledge hungry client. On the road and as above its now about to challenge their skills and beliefs, this is where I as a trainer want to know if they have bought into what I'm offering as a life style choice or just giving me lip service.

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Re: Being blunt

Post by Lily-Anne on Sun Sep 19, 2010 1:23 pm

You have to do Cardington Stephen, I preferred it to any other, was tough though.

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